People of the Delta (Open Thread)

the level of violence in the so called “civilized world” is horrific.

That’s a depressing question that i believe the answer to be no.

How can what you want be achieved?

MsP….What exactly did she accomplish here?

Inspiration. Determination. Bravery. One viral photo — Major Accomplishment. That leads on to more of the same.

What did that photo achieve? A lot. It’s beautiful, and it’s brave. It inspires others to be brave and beautiful too. Thanks to that photo, there are other people who will join her in the streets. The more people who join us in the streets, the more they’ll get others to share the photo and join us. That’s the fires that WE start and they come from the heart.

Social change is never instant.

There is no American Left to speak of–no serious Left. It has to be created. I think that is what we all agree on. How that happens is the question.

And how is solidarity fostered? Less through violence, in my opinion. But I agree, a combination of the brave carrot and the angry stick is often the best approach.

I’ve been arrested and taken to jail too. And I will continue to be if need be. I am not afraid of the oligarchy and willing to die for what I believe in, what I’m afraid of is that people are too afraid to do the same. But, at the same time, I realize that I was raised in a home where my grandparents were communists, and my parents were hardcore progressive activists. I got my political education from a young age, and I had a library at my disposal that taught me the lessons of radical history. With my own activism, I have to always keep in mind at all times that the people who I go out to engage in struggle with have not had that education, but whenever possible I share what I know — because the more you share, the more they’re curious to know. There is a science and long and incredibly interesting history to our struggles on the left, and that’s what we need to make people interested and curious about, even when we’re standing up in the here and now. It’s not an easy thing, but it’s always worth the time.

“Dr. King’s policy was that nonviolence would achieve the gains for black people in the United States. His major assumption was that if you are nonviolent, if you suffer, your opponent will see your suffering and will be moved to change his heart. That’s very good. He only made one fallacious assumption: In order for nonviolence to work, your opponent must have a conscience. The United States has none.”- Stokely Carmichael

“That’s very good. He only made one fallacious assumption: In order for nonviolence to work, your opponent must have a conscience. The United States has none.”
I think this is dead on except this sentence which is hyperbole. It is an over simplification that is both true and false.

Not anymore it doesn’t .

No one who lives in America is irrelevant to having a conversation about the US. As for policy and claiming that we can have zero effect is how you produce zero effect. Defeatism is not how the left functions. Iron Determination is what we we’re about. We’ve never produced any change on the left without that.

I’m a fan of both. In fact, as I’ve said here, I think both are necessary and that they need to work together. I’m a believer in the two pronged attack: the pacifists draw the pacifist types, the militants draw the militant types, together we draw large numbers in, and together the elites realize that they’re steadily losing power and can’t win no matter what they do. I’m a fan of less bloodshed in revolution. I don’t admire the Reign of Terror, or Stalinist tactics. I do think that it’s clear that winning through vast amounts of bloodshed and murder makes societies into beasts, and I think it should be avoided where possible.

When I talk about the United States, I’m not talking about society, I’m talking about government, the people who set rules for society. So was Carmichael.

Sounds good but fortunately or unfortunately it is not that simple. George Carlin, who is posted in this thread, knew that. The United States is the aggregate in total, and also affiliated with virtually all human societies. So the inertial is real.

They weren’t very peaceful either, by and large. And there was A LOT of violent resistance going on, too. Weather Underground, anyone?

Exactly.

In that moment that’s how she might appear to some, to others she looks like a beautiful warrior. (That’s how I view her.) But in fact she did not die, this woman lived to tell that tale and to inspire so many others who share her views! As a student of that history, I know that this is how our struggles on the left have always been won. I have endless admiration for her, and all others like her.

People DO want a political education. They were getting one with Bernie, and he filled stadiums. Yes, it seemed a bit boring to us who already have that education, but I can assure you that it was electrifying to those who didn’t have one prior to hearing what he had to say.
The reason that Bernie was treated like a pariah and blatantly cheated out of winning the nomination is because the elites were SCARED of that power, and that message he was spreading. People want that education so bad that I’m shocked to hear a brilliant guy like you say that you don’t think that’s true!

And then, he didn’t fight for it. But they still want it. So, it’s their fight now.
Btw, I disagree that they weren’t getting an education. I worked as a volunteer for Bernie’s campaign, and I know for a fact that there were many people young and old that got one hell of a good political education as a result of his campaign — both good AND bad.

You are both right, actually.

70+ percent of the American people are actually asleep still.

“And I’d bet many of those are just in a state where they won’t even admit to themselves that they know.” Agree. That’s what I meant.

please show me where I said he should be coddled.
you have no idea what the dead think of how they are being killed 17.

lol, I am not going to get into a discussion about this with you. I stand by my comment-it’s my opinion and how I feel about it.
we are not on the same page and I am cool with that.

There are only two things that make the elites nervous. Overwhelming support of the masses, and the THREAT of mass violence, not actual acts of violence. The way overwhelming support is garnered is by non-violent action in the face of clear violence and oppression, and when you have the people with you, the threat that you will do the same to the elites is what scares them most. When you begin doing acts of violence BEFORE you have the vast majority on your side, that’s how you get murdered, demonized, and sidelined.

We on the left need to take this lesson from history, and when we do, there is NOTHING that can stop us.

The problem with threats of violence only, is that your opponent eventually catches on to that game. What’s important, I think, is the willingness to resort to violence and, I’m sorry to say, that’s something the American Left, pacified by decades of not standing up for itself, and lies about protesting and petitions, has repeatedly demonstrated that it will simply not do. And the oligarchs are gleefully aware of that and they have no such compunctions about visiting genocidal violence against their enemies, internal or external. 🙁

I agree that the American and European left have hurt themselves for too long — but it’s not because they didn’t resort to enough violence, it’s because their message wasn’t delivered in a way that could get the people to rally to their side. And understand, I’m not saying that I never think acts of violence can’t be effective, but only that it’s dangerous to engage in many of them without having the people with you first. People are being oppressed and murdered in numerous and various ways under capitalism, but we need to raise awareness, and that’s where we’re failing, and have been failing. The mass of people have to understand what the issues are — and we’re dealing with a media that is firmly on the side of the oligarchs, so it’s harder to make our message spread. Yet, that is our task if we want to wield real power.

I’m with you.

Yes exactly there is a line.

Making an argument for war is a separate issue than how we are going to conduct and govern ourselves, even in Wartime.